Ongoing product value and paid upgrades

General Discussion
621

you can continue using your purchased versions for as long as you like even if you don’t upgrade

This is a valid point only in theory. From a practical point of view the purchased versions will be usable only for a limited time because of the bugs, defects and limitations of your (or any) software.

For instance, today, both Denoise and Sharpen will crash on perfectly compliant TIF files that contain specific tags (or something to that effect). This seems to be a bug on the back burner of the development team and it might still be there in 6 months or more. Most of your customers are not aware of that because the software that they are using upstream of Topaz products aren’t producing the problematic TIF files. If in 2021 a couple popular software start producing these problematic TIF files, it will become a pain for the vast majority of your customers and that will be the point where your point above will completely fall apart. And there certainly are many more bugs, defects and limitation that will pop up.

So, yes you can claim that it is not a subscription if you like, but that rhetorical point is of no practical value for your paying customers. It is in fact misleading and that is a concern whether it is intentional or not. I’ll assume that you are not intentionally trying to be misleading and that you simply haven’t thought through all the implications of your decision and i will strongly encourage you to reconsider.

I case you would consider reevaluating your decision, perhaps you could start from a more practical assessment of the situation and see how you could structure your development and release process in different ways. For instance, you could explore in more detail the whole range of possibilities between “free upgrades” and “paid upgrades”. Maybe there is an opportunity to come up with a long term product plan with major upgrades (e.g. revamping the whole product line with radical new features), minor upgrades (e.g. performance improvement or addition of minor features) and bug fixes. For each level of upgrade you would be able to come up with a rock solid sustaining and retirement plan (e.g. committing on 3 years maintenance for each minor version) which would enable communicating a clear, transparent and reliable plan for commercialization (e.g. buy new for major releases, subscription maintenance for minor releases and free bug fixes for the lifetime of the product line). Some development teams have been experimenting fairly successfully with these concepts for half a century or so, maybe Topaz Labs development team could benefit from these radical ideas. Maybe you would even end up producing better products, reducing the cost of development and maintenance, enabling new market opportunities and avoiding alienating your customers.

622

I understand your point of view. It’s really beside the point. You are obviously a pro. I am not. Look at it this way, you spend a lot less per photo on your software. You probably process many more photos per month than I do in 3 months. I bought the software because of the free updates because I knew it worked. I could live with bug fixes because I knew that they would get fixed. Now, I don’t know if I’ll have to pay for bug fixes or not. TL hasn’t said. If I do I’m done with them for sure. Again, Adobe charges $10 per month for LR and PS, but NOTHING upfront. They also push bug fixes immediately. TL now has incentive not to do that. Now TL wants money up front and to charge for upgrades! In what world does this work? I think you are looking at a situation that works great for you and other pros and screws the hobbyist. If I can find other software that does the same thing I’ll ask for my refunds, even if I have to work harder and longer. I’m retired, I have time.

The taste this is leaving in my mouth is that photography is going to become less and less popular as a hobby because the companies don’t care about the end user, or their reputation. As long as the software mostly works, and the money rolled in, they frankly don’t give a damn. I understand the business world, you have to survive. You don’t have to screw everyone while doing it.

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623

Every program I’ve written (hundeds and in several different languages) were bug free. Not a bold statement. Just fact. I spend more time designing than I did in coding. That’s where the bugs show up. In design. They simply don’t survive any longer in the process than that. Also, my staff have delivered complete business systems without error.

The true cost of code is in maintenance. You only implement once, then support it for up to many years. All my code was simple to maintain.

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624

Great question. I downloaded and installed the various software to try. At the time there was an introductory period to try and buy. When I found out about it, there was only a few days left to take advantage. I tried the software in a stand alone mode and worked well enough for me to decide to purchate. As the documentation and advertisement stated they were fully plug in for LR and PS, I purchased.

After purchase and install, I found that going from LR to the Topaz AI app from Edit In , when you made your changes and saved, the program would crash. Contacting Tech Support at Topaz, and I have the email’s, they stated that yes, there is an issue that is being worked on and may be resolved in the future. Now we are told the future will cost us…even though what the marketed was not correct.

So, yes…we purchased based on product descrriptons that were actually not true and now, to get what was marketed, we now have to pay more…

Jeff

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625

Sorry, but I have to call BS. There is good code and there is bad code. However, there is no code that is zero bug free, regardless of your assertion of this “fact”. Bugs (defects) are typically not introduced in design although good design certainly counters that. They are introduced by human error in coding. For example, not using function prototypes in C (years ago) has caused many crashes. That has to do with good code more than good design. One of the main drivers for C++. ie data and code not matching.

And large applications are ever evolving, but it would be very rare to get the design perfect from the start. You think Photoshop and Lightroom never had defects? Please.

Are you familiar with the concept of pair-programming? If the bugs were introduced in the design there would be no reason for two sets of eye-balls during the coding phase. This is a debate for another time, but your assertions are not realistic and not backed up by any hard evidence other than your own boasts.

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626

I bought Gigapixel AI back in Oktober 2019. So the promised free updates and upgrades for the life time were rejected only 4 months later and will totally fall apart shortly after? That is by far the most shorten definition of a “life-time” I ever had. I can not help myself to feel like this was a deception considering that the software was sold under certain contracts and promises.

Not to mention that when you sell a software product to a customer in Germany things are a bit different. Our highest court often enough explained that a piece of software is equal to anything you buy: You not only buy a copy with some rights of usage. Instead you indeed buy this piece/box of software and it is yours. If you are not familar with this here s a long explanation from a lawyer about this:

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627

Hello IMO, I think you might be misunderstanding the changes that will be occurring. The software isn’t going to, as you said, “fall apart shortly after.” It will continue to work just as it did when you bought it. The change is that when modifications, improvements, or features are made to the software, in order for you to take advantage of those new improvements you would need to purchase an upgrade to do so. But other than that, you will still be able to use it with every feature it had when you bought it, just as you are able to do so right now.

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628

Call BS all you want. Its been my personal experience. What methods do you use in Design. You should have brought up process. Decent requirements gathering matters as well. Proper design, code, testing all matter. I’ve had departments move from nothing to a certified SEI/CMM level 4 within 4 years. Leadership and process discipline all matters.

That you’re not curious about success - but stand in sad denial is telling. I would have been happy to share.

I’ve implemented one of the first, if not the first Enterprise B2B systems ever implemented in the US. Design, coded, tested and supported for a year before the business finally caught up. No bugs. Not one error. In Pascal of all languages. ASCII - EBCIDIC conversion, even and odd word boundary issues. I got it all done with no bugs. Niklaus Wirth was surprised to hear about this. $ Millions a day in transactions. It was a case study at Harvard Business School for a while.

Bad C discipline? See you at run time. lol. It requires standards and governance. Introducing bugs in design? How is that possible. What tools are you using?

No boasts. Just fact. Zero bugs. None and here – a $99 per year surcharge may be their way of paying for mistakes that could have been avoided. Bugs cost money.

629

I know. They mention this to make me thing this is something “special”, but in reality it only matches how it is handled when a box of software is being legally sold here in Germany, so this is quite usual!

When software has already been sold under a certain contract with certain additional conditions this is an already finished, closed business that can not be changed at will after. New conditions can only be applied to new sells.

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630

Here’s your chance to show them how it’s done.

BTW, if you did all you say you’d be a billionaire and then why would you worry about $99/year? :roll_eyes:

Topaz-mgr

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631

Adobe flat out lied to their customers stating that you HAD to be on cs6 in order to be able to update to the first CC version. When everybody purchased cs6 and CC came out, it turned out you even could update from cs3…

I know very well how Adobe operates and what they promise…

Keep on defending Adobe and pay for life.

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632

“I’m not jumping for joy. Who would? But I’d rather accept reality than insist on my rights and watch it all implode…”

Agree,
They could come up with a more affordable plain though.

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633

I am leasing the Adobe Complete Suite for $30,00 per month + Tax (US) so all I can say is bye bye.

634

Of course it’s hurts in my pocket and as always the smile is less. BUT:

Your Products are AMAZING and I know how much effort and cost (man power, equipment etc.) it need to release great products!!!

So, great decision! Stay on trak and save the value of topazlab!

THANKS! (even when it hurts in our pockets :slight_smile: )

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635

I have been a Topaz customer for a very long time. Not all your products have worked as advertized. Some have been down right broken and a great disappointment. Others have been great, and I have been very happy with. What kept me a loyal customer has been the upgrade for life which was promised with no exceptions, and told that this would not change. I can see paid upgrades for new prodcts going forward but products bought before this was implemented should still be free upgrades as was the contract I signed up for. This is very bad customer service. You should grandfather those that have the products before this change was made public. I also see a legal problem in that over the years many times it was stated that the free upgrades would not change. You have just made a lier out of all topaz employes that have said that. Buisness 101 keep your long time customers happy, an unhappy customer cost more. It cost less to retain than to find new customers. Now why should I choose you over photoshop, on1, Nik, or any of the other programs, when some have products that work better that yours. Your free upgrades let me know that you would work on programs that needed improvement. Now I have to take your word that you will put top grade programs out. How can I beleive your word when you have just broken it.

Very disappointed
Douglas John Loudon

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636

As the greater percentage of customers, I am very upset at this news! I have been a customer of Topaz labs since it was founded. In fact, the sole reason for doing so all those years ago, was that they bought the “Buzz Simplify” software from its UK developers, which I had been using for quick and simple results for fun, for a good few years before that!

I also pay a monthly subscription to Adobe for Lightroom & Photoshop and will continue to do so, despite the fact I am now retired. However, there will soon come a time when the latest upgrades for the Adobe programmes will not work with my MacOS, as will most of the Topaz software, and i just cannot afford to upgrade my Macs.

Therefore, like many others, I will not be upgrading these Topaz products, which TBH, I have hardly used, apart from ‘Impression’, Texture Effects’, and ‘Mask’, preferring to stick with what I know… Photoshop. Whilst I can probably understand the motive behind these proposals, I am sorry… you are not “better serving me”!

I am a lifetime customer and recently, customer support have been very generous with me, but I just cannot afford these charges, especially for bug fixes… and some recent upgrades have been very buggy! Why should we pay for continuous updates to fix the software?

I am probably more concerned that improvements/support for “Simplify” will now just get dropped… Likewise for ‘Impression’ and other effects. Most of the main features in the Topaz suite can be replicated in Photoshop, these effects can’t so easily and instantly. OK, it’s fun software after all, and a lot of ‘serious’ photographers will turn their noses up, but I have been able to create some great effects over the years, literally at the touch of a button, and the resulting images as prints and cards, have proved very popular at local craft fairs etc.

Perhaps Topaz Labs would clarify?

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637

As a moderator here I have been disappointed by the activities in this particular thread, especially the posts that have no facts to back them up, the accusations and the pure vitriol by certain members of this forum. I would just like to correct the misconceptions, rumors and downright mistruths that have been appearing in this thread.

The facts are the following:

  • The update charges which are $49.99 for one product or $99.98 for 2 or more only apply to GigaPixel AI, DeNoise AI, Sharpen AI or Mask AI. They do not apply to any other products and conjecture is pure myth.
  • It is not proposed to start until August 2020.
  • As to the status of supposed “free” updates for the life of these products I have yet to see any statements that verify that it was not a misconception on our part as the following has been the status of these products:
    • GigaPixel AI was a totally new product and was sold as that.
    • DeNoise AI was a product where a free copy was offered to those who had a copy of DeNoise v6.
    • Sharpen AI was a product where users of InFocus were offered a free copy.
    • And Mask AI buyers were offered a discount if they previously owned ReMask v6.
  • Long term users of Topaz products have received free upgrades for the life of the 16 legacy products listed on the legacy download page and some products such as Adjust have been replaced with a current version.

Unsubstantiated posts in the thread:

There are posts that claim that for those unhappy with the upgrade charges may apply for refunds of the four products affected by the upgrade policy. The must submit receipts though.

Other things that were posted here that are of no concern include the following:

  • This is a subscription charge. The answer, simply put, is that the upgrade costs are NOT a subscription but a charge for annual upgrades for the year in which you pay it. If you don’t upgrade you have the use of that version of the product for the rest of its life.
  • Comments about other products and its costing, such as Gigapixel AI for Video, are simply sarcasm by persons who have no idea about the value of the product and only comment on the price.
  • The price of Adobe subscriptions is of no concern to any of us who don’t use Adobe products, so why post here? As the costs of upgrades to Capture One weren’t reported correctly.

I see other comparisons to products like DxO labs, Lightroom, Photoshop etc. which are pure mistruths both on the functionality and costs basis. The four concerned products have no competitive products of the same standard available.

Comments about development practices and support are totally out of line as you have no idea of the research and development practices use for AI products. And comments about support are unnecessary, from my own personal experience none of the products i own offer direct telephone support and the only direct support I had from Adobe was when I was helping the Camera RAW team with profiles for the Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR. Telephone support is a difficult proposition at the best of times as emotions override the truth.

Topaz Labs have been truthful about their reasons for the annual upgrade charges that will be used for research and development of the products. That can only lead to a better product and a better computing environment for all users.

You all need to make a choice about whether or not you are going forward and continuing to use these four products or simply going to give them up completely and ask for a refund or wait until August 2020 to see the progress of development and then make a decision.

I am asking all of you to stop with the pointless posts about threatening legal action or posting mistruths or simply sounding off with no basis of fact. Since the inception of social media we have seen an upsurge in what I call mistruths or others call false news. I guess people see that they can say anything without repercussion, but you have to remember that the mistruths you put forward, without basis in fact, may actually be believed by others.

Remember we are a community here where users can come for help.

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638

Do you want to see more?

Topaz-gigapixel-add
Topaz-gigapixel-add1485×2306 1.28 MB

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639

Sorry I personally haven’t seen that particular page but I can’t say it is not true. Many of those statments are on websites such as Northlight, Plugs n Pixels, DP Review etc.

640

It’s an image cropped out of the original mail I got from Topaz Labs!
If you want I can PM you the original mail.

But that doesn’t say I don’t want to pay a reasonable upgrade fee in the future. (not $ 99.00)

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