Ongoing product value and paid upgrades

@fsuscotphoto1, as @Kathy_9 indicate, at this point there is really not much “management” can say, other than answering very specific questions about the future. Without unlimited funds, there is no way to undo the deep hole Topaz has dug for itself in the software path taken. Only way is to continue on the new path already chosen and hope for the best.

I obviously have no direct knowledge about Topaz’s financials, but I doubt there is another other option.

Looking at the situation and Topaz current product page, they have 7 distinct products at a combined cost of $560 if purchased separately, or $400 if a new customer purchase both of the “bundles”. Plus taxes.

That is an extremely high price either way, given that the functionality in these 7 separate products all belong in a SINGLE program to have a natural workflow.
Problem is, that if all this piecemeal functionality was combined into one, you likely still could not charge more than around $100 for the whole combo program. (Making yearly updates even cheaper.)

In the new model, that $560 would also come with $100/year for updates to keep it running. Whether or not you purchased bundles.

In a competitive world, compare to Adobe at $120/year to lease both Photoshop and Lightroom (with NO other initial investment), or Affinity Photo at $50 to purchase initially, less for updates/year.

Try to imagine Photoshop switching from a do-all-edits-in-one model to chopping up its functionality into pieces comparable to Topaz. Separate standalone apps with separate output files to color change, deNoise, mask, sharpen, change size, … and charging 5 times the price if you needed to do it all. Unimaginable.
Photoshop’s downside then is one of complexity and learning curve. An obstacle for some, but maybe worth it even for slower learners to avoid the $560+$100 proposition.

But at this moment in time, I personally believe that “management” is merely thinking this way:

Existing old-time customers will whine for a while like we are now, and will (as many comments on this thread indicate) split in two. Some will drop out, and a certain percentage will continue with Topaz to save their existing investment (money and learning time). For Topaz hopefully a reasonable percentage will grudgingly accept the latest new path and stay in the hole Topaz dug for us.

For future new sales revenue, then add potential new customers that have never been under the “free upgrades for life” scheme. But those will be many times harder to acquire now, given the loss of the “free for life” updates selling point. The issue becomes having enough selling proposition for those new customers to accept the exceedingly high cost of $560 for all the pieces, while still having to pay yearly “update” fees to keep the software running both for functionality and as OSs change. Just the initial $560 buy-in is not easy to market without “free updates forever”.

But there is probably at this point no real good way for “management” to answer further, other than on potential direct, simple financial/technical questions about how the future path will work. As @Kathy_9 hinted at.

There is likely financially no way to undo neither the poor design decisions over the past couple of years, nor to grandfather old customers into a “continue free forever updates as promised”. Given the increased marketing difficulty in catching new customers willing to pay $560 + $100+/year, the update revenue from the remaining old-timer customers is more needed than ever.

As I currently imagine it,
The choice for existing customers is purely one of stay with the current software path (accepting the loss of “free updates”), or to accept the sunk cost of our large Topaz investments over the years and bail out for greener pastures.

The choice for potential new customers is whether at $560 (bundle purchase at $400) the current piecemeal software is anywhere near competitive or worth it, without the old updates forever promise.

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I’ll address both of you here. I was contacted by management when I got booted off the forum for several days (never was told why). Ihad stated I wanted a refund, @$400. A ticket was opened and that’s the last thing I heard, so if I’m puzzled I have good reason to be.

Rover, I disagree with your premise. I think TL is in panic mode. I’m betting there are a lot more requests for refunds than we know about and it’s only going to get worse. When a new upgrade comes out and X number of people don’t get the upgrade for free, the firestorm burns red hot again.

In my opinion, this isn’t going to end pretty for TL. I’ve already gotten an email asking if I would be interested in a class action lawsuit. I haven’t answered it yet because I’m waiting to see if I get my refund. If I do, I’m finished and TL will never hear from me again. If I don’t, in a reasonable amount of time, I will answer it. You can guess what my answer would be.

TL has gotten hundreds of emails now suggest either grandfathering us in or at least spreading this out. I guess I was hoping for some type of answer from management on some type of compromise. I would have and still might be open to that, but as you say, they don’t seem to be able to say anything.

I remember when Adobe went to subs. At least they continued with a management member on their forums. I don’t think this is over by a long shot.

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@fsuscotphoto1, Not sure which part of my “premise” you disagree with. Not sure that I really had one, other than looking at the options TL actually have at this late part of the game.

I do not disagree with you at all on the panic mode thing. I know I would be, if in their situation.
Especially, after they suddenly made the mistake of “promising” refunds to the customer base.

There is no way any company, already in a precarious situation, could realistically do that.
With the pricing of Topaz software, that would mean writing checks of $400 or more to a lot of us, me included. I don’t think thats going to happen, although asking for my refund might not be a bad idea. I still have my invoices and invoice numbers. A lot of it for software Topaz have now declared dead and defunct.

But I think you are in for a long, long wait. At this point, doing ANY refunds to ANY customers for software purchased more than 30 days previously sets a precedence that could sink the Titanic.

But please let me know if you get your refund. In that case it would not take me more than a few minutes to send mine in too. :slight_smile:

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I totally agree. I’ll post here if I do get a refund. I don’t know if it will happen or not, but it was an upper management member that communicated with me. I think that they are really in a pickle. Maybe they thought that most everyone would go on along for the ride. Whoever projected the outcome of this fiasco did a huge disservice to TL. I said in an earlier email that I thought that TL would be gone by the end of the year. I’ll add to that. I bet they are looking for a buyer. That really is their only way to stay in business now I think.

If I were you, I’d ask for that refund. I think some of us may get them, then it will collapse.

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I asked for my refund about 3 weeks ago (?)
The refund came in last week (nearly $300, but I couldn’t find receipts for 2 of my products…so refund would have been worth more).
I went back through my Credit Card details, and emailed that to Topaz as proof of purchase price.
Now I have bought Luminar 4 (it’s OK, and love the sky replace system), and will probably eventually get Affinity…although I still use Photoshop CS5 anyway.
Topaz was fine years ago, but sadly they have lost their way.
Even Gigapixel AI can be replaced by BenVista PhotoZoom Pro, or check out Ashampoo products (Sharpen, Denoise, etc).
Yes, get your refund, buy other products and stop worrying about Topaz.
I will buy from Topaz again one day, if they come out with a product I like/want and it’s fully functional/well sorted.
But I saw nothing compelling in the current lineup that made me want to stay.

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Right now there is a lot of angst being expressed on this forum which I feel is a bit over the top. I’d like to take some time to discuss and ask that all read this with an open mind, perhaps after a breath of fresh air, and a glass/cup of a preferred beverage, to allow the mind to clear some and the passion diminish.

I am not affiliated with TL (Topaz Labs) in any way save for having been active in the beta test program since 2008. Back then TL was a very small company of, if I recall correctly, 8 individuals. I have met several of them individually at product conventions and enjoyed my conversations with them. During my time “working” with the company over these 13 years I have experienced what I will refer to as 3 phases of corporate behavior. I should like to address each individually. The first runs from my initial association with TL until shortly after the release of Studio 1. The third runs from about two months ago and is current. The second occupies the time between. What I shall refer to as “corporate” behavior will be what I experienced during the many beta test programs in which I have been involved.

Phase 1. When I began beta testing for the company all the products were just plug-ins and nothing was stand alone. The betas were thorough, lengthy, and resulted in products that were ready for prime time (RFPT), and better than most other companies releases, when released. Interaction with the engineers was timely, and many, many suggestions made by the testers were rapidly incorporated into the product(s). It was also a time when company employment appeared to be stable and you knew with whom you were working. The beta test programs were fun and you felt like you were a significant part of the program! This was also the time of almost weekly hour long training webinars hosted by both TL employees and outside professional trainers/photographers. These were really helpful and I believe are still out there on the TL Youtube page. In this area TL really outshone all its competitors. You are all familiar with those products, they are all still available on the download page, and are the group of products we all remember as being upgradable for life. Unfortunately, I do believe that many of us may have taken that “lifetime” idea to mean our lives and not that of the product. The life of those products, although still available, is over and so TL has been faithful on its promise of lifetime upgrades. But that lifetime has ended. Whether or not one agrees with the end of product support, that is, and always was/shall be a corporate option as it is with every other product and not limited to software. I think we all truly know that. So it is unfair to claim that TL has broken its contract with us.

Phase 2. Shortly after the release of Studio 1 things began to change. Many of those in the employ of TL left, with new faces appearing regularly. The webinars greatly diminished and were not of the quality previously experienced. More importantly, the betas became rushed and never finished with all kinds of ridiculous excuses, feedback was abominable, products were routinely released NOT RFPT, updates were of the M$ type where one thing would be fixed and a working feature broken or removed, and new products were released before the current one(s) was/were functional. A good example being the replacement of Studio 1 with Studio 2 which is far from RFPT. Studio 1 being a poor replacement for PhotoFXlab which held great promise and then was just history. This also was the into of the AI line of products and a new support program which was NEVER fully explained or developed. This was the start of no longer offering lifetime product upgrades but such was never delineated and users were left with an ASSUMPTION that was false but not addressed until Eric’s recent letter. I realize that there was a screen capture shared which showed Gigapixel as having the lifetime provision but to be honest I have never seen that on any TL page. I’m NOT denying what that graphic shows, but I’m wondering about it’s origin as it is not in line with the TL policy that began with the release of the AI programs. However, if it had it’s origin on a web page write-up with the writer simply applying the lifetime upgrade policy based on history this could account for the mis-understanding. Again, I’m NOT challenging what was shown, just suggesting that it is possible to not have been of TL origin. In any event, the programs, the support, and the training provided by TL during this time was truly unacceptable in my NSHO.

Phase 3. This last phase started about the beginning of this year. Beta testing began with a major thrust of returning to actively working with the beta testers, engineers rapidly responding to the comments of those testing the products, greatly expanded beta programs, and an apparent cessation of building new products before those out were RFPT. I’m not suggesting that everything is now perfect, BUT, in the past 2 months I have experienced GREATLY improved performance of everything TL related. Based SOLELY on this two month experience, I’m hopeful of seeing the old TL return to the delight of us all. I think that the potential for this occurring is significant.

Now, with all that said, let’s take another look at what is occurring. TL has discontinued support for what are now called “Classic Plugins.” Their life support has run out and are no longer up gradable precisely because they are no longer being upgraded. TL has fulfilled their “contractual” agreement. They still work and are still available. IF you still like them this might be the opportune time to download the entire set and save them.

Since these are no longer being supported, this might be the opportune time to make a group REQUEST of TL to 1) make them freely available in a manner similar to what was done with the nik plugin software AND 2) ask that either the requirement for a serial umber be removed or, if not, then at least continue to support that aspect of the software. That said, I can see a reluctance to fully implement such a policy simply based on the downloads page stating that many of the “Classic” options are now incorporated in the Studio programs. Still . . . . . . . . . it never hurts to ASK. :grinning:

The support of the new AI generation of programs, which has generated all the uproar, are those that many find not up to par. I believe this will change over the next few months and that we should all make use of the currently available free upgrades to see what they will do. After that we can make a decision, based on product performances, as to whether or not we will remain customers. Jumping ship now when nothing had changed and won’t for several (6) months doesn’t make sense. Silly to cut off one’s nose to spite one’s face. Let’s see what develops between now and August. In the meantime, TL labs has heard all of us and has replied to several responses already. Perhaps, after having had a time to thoroughly review all these more than 800 responses, they will determine that it makes more sense to sell “X” products at “Y” price and keep the customer base happy and active than it does to sell 1/10 “X” products at 10"Y” price. I think this comes under the no-brainer category. I believe the prudent thing would be to wait and see. IF TL doesn’t see the advantage of lower pricing/more customers vs higher pricing/fewer customers, then there will be plenty of time to jump ship.

Now I’m an old turkey - still think a phone is something that sits on your desk. I come from the Unix era where the philosophy was one small well written program to do just one task VERY well. I’m not a fan of one program to do everything not so well, think M$, Adobe, Studio, etc. I think it would be a great approach if TL would adopt this Unix philosophy and write all its software to follow this approach. Use program X to do a specific task and then hand it off to program Y to accomplish the next task. In a sense that was what we had with the “Classic” plugins although they were called from a host program. To a degree this is what Studio does but as written I find the Studio gets in the way. I know this is exactly pertinent to the current discussion, but chew on it a bit; it may make more sense after giving it some thought.

Thanks for letting me comment.

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Topaz is exceeding fair. It’s actually rare to be able to buy software and use it forever these days.
Most companies are using subscription models… and in the days before subscriptions you didn’t get photoshop 2 for free if you owned photoshop 1.

Put this tech in the hands of another company and they’d be forcing us to upload individual photos and pay per picture and charge us based upon what resolution our download was.

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Well said and appreciated David.

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As I mentioned on my blog a while back, that’s not universally true. Luminar 4 was a quantum leap forward but they’re not on the annual cycle. DXO Photo Lab 3, which is an excellent piece of software, added almost nothing new.

The difficulty is that there’s only so much you can actually do with 16 bit photo software. I’m a software developer and I used to write photo software, so I know how hard it is to innovate.

The Topaz AI range is a step forward in the right direction but, without revenue, they will reach a point where they can’t enhance them further.

The advice in a post above this is right - wait and see what happens in the next six months before deciding what to do.

A very rational and thoughtful response. I too have been a beta tester for some time and I’d have to agree with your assessment…I’m not leaving…the tools I own allow me to do almost everything I need to do or that or are in my province. Every now and then when another software company produces something that appears to do a job better, if the price is low enough to take a chance, I’ll buy it. Most of the time, with repeated use, the gain is not as much as I hoped and they lay idle while I return to the Topaz apps. I’ll wait and see if future improvements warrant purchasing an upgrade or not.

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Very well spoken David, I’ve also been beta testing for some time, starting with FX and then the start of Studio 1. I will sometimes try out other software, but I always go back to TL.

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Finally, a mature voice is heard. Well said David.

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Wonder where you get that info from!

Despite the fact that I don’t care about the upgrade plan (only think it’s a extremely high priced upgrade for such a expensive product already!) I have my doubts about this will work out.

As long as the processing of images takes like 5 minutes for only DeNoise, Sharpen and Adjust on my iMac i5 3.7 gig 6 cores 64gig memory 8gig graphics card nobody seriously busy with large amounts of images is going to use the AI plugins. I have the whole lot and work on Mac and Windows. With the regular Adjust I have my images done in seconds and they look even better then the ones from the AI plugin.
Important to say is that the regular Adjust gives full control over details in the image and the AI one not.

I get similar or better results with the Nik collection in seconds instead of minutes.

Think that the beta testers should be more critical considering the experiences of the last two years.

We need one master plugin with all the other AI plugins in it working in seconds instead of minutes and people don’t care if it is AI or what ever it’s named, as long as it works proper.

Regards,

David

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Well said indeed David.

Over (too many!) years I have tried alternatives/competitors but always return to Topaz (with others for different workflows etc) for its often unique features and what I felt was fairness towards customers. All too often I have found the pricing policy of competitors to be higher than Topaz over time, with support practices that I have found appallingly bad.
As others have said, the recent past has given rise to quality problems - Topaz are obviously aware and hopefully will go some way to satisfy over the next few months (then beyond!). For me, Topaz is a critical part of my (totally amateur) workflow so I would hate to lose it and I believe - regardless of that - Topaz suggested path forward is not unreasonable.
However (forgive me for taking this opportunity) I do wish that they had/would not get rid of some functionality that was of creative value. For example, Restyle is now one of the ‘legacy’ plug-ins (what happened to that 'consultative exercise of asking users what they value, I mean its outcome?) and yet, although ‘Color Theme’ can be used it does not provide the full functionality of flexibility of Restyle - unless I’m missing something, somewhere. There are others (image layer, anyone?), of course - I mean this as an example; a self-inflicted wound, if you will.

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@AllMediaLab,

people don’t care if it is AI or what ever it’s named, as long as it works proper.

100%… :slight_smile:

The AI moniker for photo correction/transformation is very much an abuse of the term, and normal people don’t care whether that misused term is applied as a marketing gimmick. (Whether or not an AI engine is actually in play.)

They only care whether a product works consistently and works fast.

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And to add… most people don’t have the gaming computer required for these pieces of software to run quickly. With only the bare mimimum requirements, the AI products need processing time. When it’s one or two photos, it’s okay to take a coffee break while it works, but that gets old very quickly.

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Topaz: Running Slow? plus a Bonus: A few thoughts to ponder …

Different flavors of Topaz AI ran slow on my W10 i7 3.7 32 Gig o’ Ram …and a lowly 2GB video

When Topaz AI stalled I discovered I’d made a common mistake: set High Performance in the front W10 window — and moved on - veeeery sloooowly.

Then I remembered to check the individual Topaz apps I had installed individually in Graphics Settings and set each to “High Performance.”

Sure enough - each app defaulted to Intel - simple to reset - and 6-8 minutes became 2.

Hint: Check after Every Topaz install, reinstall, upgrade or update - and after every big W10 update

About those Points to Ponder: can we talk a moment?

It’s been hot and heavy since the awkward policy post - but those of us with a few miles know well: we learn to make good decisions by making bad ones.

Here’s what we know so far: the Announcement missed a major opportunity to bridge the divide between the old policy and the new by grandfathering existing members, many of whom helped get Topaz to where it is today.

Whatever else I think it’s a safe bet Management has figured out that the line between Update and Upgrade must be carefully defined and consistently applied.

Topaz products are not perfect. It’s true, and also true, they tend to move to a new product which often masks (no pun) the problem - and too often they tend to fragment processing tools between Apps.

So can we all agree that, free upgrades or no, Topaz isn’t perfect.

Now let’s consider what Topaz IS:

Topaz is an affordable introduction into the cutting edge of image processing.

But remember; cutting edges are sharp, but they are also brittle.

Between programming apps, fitting into constantly upgrading OS, and interactions with individual user installed apps Topaz is constantly struggling to focus on a moving target.

So maybe this difficult process is a good time to total up our investment in gear, check our budget and decide if Topaz has a place in delivering the image we visualized when we pressed the shutter.

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Hi David -

It’s not info; it’s an opinion based on my experience with TL and nothing more. :grinning:

I was not defending the AI products and in fact I believe I suggested that if the “Classic” programs work better for you that you use them. I personally like them better, use them daily, and employ only a single AI product, Clear. There is nothing forcing any of us to use any specific piece of software.

One very nice aspect of the TL programs is their 30 day fully functional trial period. It’s the perfect opportunity to give them a thorough testing before committing your wallet. A really nice aspect of this approach is that after installing if you find you don’t like the program you need do nothing more than uninstall. Not like those trials where you pay first and then if you don’t like the program have to try and get a refund. So I find it a bit strange that folks are complaining about the performance of a particular program when they had the chance to work with it before purchase. Everyone’s mileage varies, but at least TL provides us with 30 days to test the applicability/functionality of each product before committing.

I’ve written a small amount of software over the years and fully appreciate the challenges facing the programmers of today’s software. With literally tens of thousands of combinations of mobo, RAM, HD speed, CPU numbers and speed, graphics cards with variable amounts and speed of VRAM, compounded by the variability of each component piece (resistor, capacitor, IC, etc. all with a + or - 10% allowable variance and still considered normal) it is no simple task to create a program that runs equally on every machine. While that is the desire of any programmer, the task is huge and I think has great potential for misunderstanding by those who have never programmed. I’m not trying to make excuses, just addressing the difficulty faced in programming today. I’m not experiencing the severe speed encumbrance you reference, but I fully acknowledge that such is the case for lots of folks using the TL products.

WRT the nik software suite, if that gives you better results why not just use it. I find it very useful along with several other plugins. Our individual goal, I would think, would be to employ the tools the best let us accomplish our desired endpoints. If that means that we use only the “Classic” TL set and nik, well, why not. We are not constrained in any way to incorporated any particular piece of software in our individual workflow(s). In my case I use the “Classic” stuff and AI Clear, but no other TL AI components as I don’t care for them. Just my approach.

I believe the majority of us who have been participating in the beta test programs have been very honest in our reporting. You are among us; wouldn’t you consider your observations to be of a critical/helpful nature? I would think so.

So why not propose to TL what it is you desire and how you would like to see it implemented. Put it on the wish list and see how many others support such. The more support for your idea the more likely such could be implemented. I think in a sense this has already been incorporated into Studio 2 to some degree but perhaps I’m not clear on your request.

plugins

A long response to your comments but returning to where I began, let’s make use of the time between now and August to see what happens. It costs nothing to watch and see and, as a beta testers, we have an opportunity to make a better product.

Regards,

dave

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Hi David,

Yes I was aware of that and my reply about AI is only my personal opinion and has nothing to do with your post! :wink:

Regards,

David

Your premise is wrong and illegal. Upgrades for the life of the product would mean you could never upgrade or get it for free. A dot fix implies the product was flawed from day one, therefore it would never be eligible for a “free” upgrade. “For life” warranties are defined as the life of the person by the federal Magnuson-Moss act. Now that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t abandon the program. if they do though, they can’t come out with a similar better program. That is considered fraud. As I said your premise is wrong based on an erroneous understanding of the law.

As I’ve said before, I no longer can trust TL. They only get one chance.

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